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LMPHRF and US Sailing

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  • rapscallion
    replied
    Personally, I like the approach taken by the multis on the great lakes concerning handicaps. And as far as a cost benefit analysis on what membership is worth, I think that is up to the members... if they are happy, then US sailing is doing its job.

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  • Kris O
    replied
    I really don't get the complaints to be required to be a member. Seems only right to support the people who send me a nice rule book. I raced a regatta in australia and was required to join the sailing authority and the class as a crew member...the same in France and Italy... Each for a single regatta.

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  • Haz
    replied
    This is a tad overboard.

    Amateur golfers who keep handicaps at clubs and expect that handicap to be honored at another club's event are members of the USGA. Bowlers the same with the American Bowling Congress. Same in most of the sports you mention.

    US Sailing isn't a body representing professional sailors, it's an organization that's supposed to represent ALL sailors in the US. Whether they do a great job of that (or not) is certainly open to a healthy debate, but the couple hundred bucks it costs to be a US Sailing member, get a PHRF cert, and pay for local club racing isn't likely really hurting sailing. Compared to the cost of waterfront access (clubs, etc.), boat storage and maintenance, the costs to race locally are pretty spartan!
    Originally posted by rapscallion View Post
    Stealth. Point well taken... USSA does the sport good. No doubt. But I have never heard of a Wednesday night baseball league having to pay the MLB in order to play. Does the Professional Bowlers association expect everyone in a bowling league to pay for a membership to bowl in a league? Is there a professional volleyball association requiring all summer volleyball leagues to pay fees to play? I'll pay for the race committee, and race entry fees, ect... but forcing handicap club racers (a dying breed as it is) to pay to play just accelerates the death of handicap racing, and the decline of the sport. There will always be one design fleets, and grand prix fleets, and the America's cup... but unlike the other sports, our professional governing body of sailing expects to be paid by the sports amateur participants just because they simply exist? Somebody's head is in the sand.. I'm just not sure it's me...

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  • rapscallion
    replied
    Stealth. Point well taken... USSA does the sport good. No doubt. But I have never heard of a Wednesday night baseball league having to pay the MLB in order to play. Does the Professional Bowlers association expect everyone in a bowling league to pay for a membership to bowl in a league? Is there a professional volleyball association requiring all summer volleyball leagues to pay fees to play? I'll pay for the race committee, and race entry fees, ect... but forcing handicap club racers (a dying breed as it is) to pay to play just accelerates the death of handicap racing, and the decline of the sport. There will always be one design fleets, and grand prix fleets, and the America's cup... but unlike the other sports, our professional governing body of sailing expects to be paid by the sports amateur participants just because they simply exist? Somebody's head is in the sand.. I'm just not sure it's me...

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  • Stealth
    replied
    Head out of the sand. A national authority like USSA is good for the sport of sailing. Stop being so cheap.

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  • rapscallion
    replied
    See the "Jester Challenge" Thread.

    I love to race. But there really is no reason for the whole PHRF US sailing membership... There are plenty of clubs that simply use PHRF ratings within the club and don't require up to date certs....

    And if you have never heard of the Jester Challenge.... do yourself a favor and look it up. I believe that is the way racing should be.

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  • Bob Hughes
    replied
    Originally posted by BobJ View Post
    Bob, our YRA has one paid position, the Executive Director. Having web skills was in the job description and she also takes the minutes at the PHRF committee meetings. As you can tell we have a huge base of boats (that's the 2011 certificate list and it's only February!) but you would need someone with those skills even if the database was small. Again, I suspect that may be the issue with your committee. Maybe someone could simply scan the certificates as they're issued (block out owner's name and address), then post the PDF's online - all to say, help the committee with a way to do it and maybe it will happen.
    Actually, our Executive Director is an expert with computer systems, so that shouldn't be an issue. The paid part, however...

    Some other PHRF regions do as you mentioned, scan and publish the certificates. Other areas will include a simple table of boats with ratings and the basis for adjustments. It's been interesting perusing other region's websites. I was looking for examples of boats converting from symmetrical kites to an asymmetrical setup, and the first one on the list in the link above is exactly what I was looking for. In general, looks like a 6 second hit.

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  • BobJ
    replied
    Bob, our YRA has one paid position, the Executive Director. Having web skills was in the job description and she also takes the minutes at the PHRF committee meetings. As you can tell we have a huge base of boats (that's the 2011 certificate list and it's only February!) but you would need someone with those skills even if the database was small. Again, I suspect that may be the issue with your committee. Maybe someone could simply scan the certificates as they're issued (block out owner's name and address), then post the PDF's online - all to say, help the committee with a way to do it and maybe it will happen.

    Leave a comment:


  • Bob Hughes
    replied
    But it sure would be nice if we could go to their website and pull up information like this:
    http://www.yra.org/PHRF/docs/current...certs_type.pdf

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  • Dyslexic Dog
    replied
    Yeah, I did not intend this as a PHRF rating bash, I just hate having a gun to my head and told I have to do something.

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  • Haz
    replied
    Originally posted by Hrothgar View Post
    I think there is silence because not that many people are too concerned with the issue. I for one harbor no bad feelings about LMPHRF or USSailing...if LMPHRF wants to make it their rule that you need to be a member of USSailing than that is their choice. As far as rating issues with LMPHRF, the only time I had an issue they corrected things right away. As far as transparency, there is enough to worry about running a program without messing in their business.

    IMHO

    Hroth
    and I fall in the middle somewhere...

    While I tend to trust Paul Ansfield and don't feel there's any particular 'underground politics' creating an errant ratings situation, I know there's an opportunity for LMPHRF to gain a lot of trust and confidence by cracking open the box a bit.

    I don't think there should be published formulas for changes to ratings that are too hard coated. It is, after all, a reviewed performance based handicap system, not a rating system. It's a run whatcha brung way to let boats compete together. No 'trial certs', etc.

    But they shouldn't clam up and slam the door when asked about how/why specific ratings were changed. There should be a public database of changes and some hint as to the logic. It really can help make people more comfortable with the process, even if they don't agree with the logic.

    'nufs been said elsewhere about mandatory membership!

    Haz

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  • Hrothgar
    replied
    Originally posted by Bob Hughes View Post
    If there are any other LMPHRF certificate holders out there that want to see changes with the organization, please send me a message. You can also email me at shorthanded35 at yahoo dot com. I tried to initiate a discussion about my concern and I'm dealing with silence. Time to go at them with numbers.
    I think there is silence because not that many people are too concerned with the issue. I for one harbor no bad feelings about LMPHRF or USSailing...if LMPHRF wants to make it their rule that you need to be a member of USSailing than that is their choice. As far as rating issues with LMPHRF, the only time I had an issue they corrected things right away. As far as transparency, there is enough to worry about running a program without messing in their business.

    IMHO

    Hroth

    Leave a comment:


  • Bob Hughes
    replied
    If there are any other LMPHRF certificate holders out there that want to see changes with the organization, please send me a message. You can also email me at shorthanded35 at yahoo dot com. I tried to initiate a discussion about my concern and I'm dealing with silence. Time to go at them with numbers.

    Leave a comment:


  • Old Codger
    replied
    Originally posted by BobJ View Post
    Here is a link to the NorCal PHRF meeting minutes. Our guys seem to do fine as long as they follow their own rules for appeals, etc. Note they tend to include their decisions in the minutes but not too much of the dialog - this should make your committee members more comfortable.

    http://www.yra.org/PHRF/ncphrf_meetings.html

    One of you who gets along with your PHRF committee could offer to attend the meetings, solely to prepare the minutes, then have them approved, then post them. Maybe none of the committee members want to do the administrative part.

    Unless you've done this sort of thing you don't understand how effective it is. The board meetings of most organizations are open to the membership. But none of the membership ever show up. I've shown up and sat through entire meetings of another organization whose actions had been making me look at them a little sideways. I said nothing, just sat quietly taking notes and ignored the comments at the table about their intention to go in to a closed session. They never asked me to leave. I don't think that I'm a physically intimidating individual but they must have figured out that if they made a formal request to have me leave they would have had to explain why. They actually didn't have any legal leg to stand on as far as having closed sessions but had been doing them for a long time and nobody had ever taken them to task on it. By the fifth session I attended there was a noticeable change in how things were being dealt with. Sometimes, just giving enough of a damn to show up and watch the people that are supposed to be representing you, is what it takes.

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  • Bob Hughes
    replied
    Originally posted by BobJ View Post
    Here is a link to the NorCal PHRF meeting minutes. Our guys seem to do fine as long as they follow their own rules for appeals, etc. Note they tend to include their decisions in the minutes but not too much of the dialog - this should make your committee members more comfortable.

    http://www.yra.org/PHRF/ncphrf_meetings.html

    One of you who gets along with your PHRF committee could offer to attend the meetings, solely to prepare the minutes, then have them approved, then post them. Maybe none of the committee members want to do the administrative part.
    What's nice is they give the data behind ratings adjustments. I've seen that with other PHRF regions as well. LMPHRF just publishes the ratings with no basis for changes.

    Leave a comment:

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